Curse

theRizzler · Apr 28, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

This thread was made as per the suggestion of nova-exarch, in response to my comments on his trade topic.

You can find the link to this topic here (He is searching for pre-Searing runes):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3019178

First of all, I would like allow the staff of GWG for supplying us such a great medium to express our opinions, and share our knowledge. Second, I would like to apologize for my initial comments being posted the wrong one of such mediums.

nova-exarch, I meant no offense to you in the thread, I was simply stating my basic knowledge of GW (not to say that you needed it) and basic economy.

One last addendum, before we get started. This is a "guide" for those who have characters that are intended to stay in pre-Searing. And I would much appreciate me, or anyone who posts here, to not be bashed for our choice to make a pre-Character. The bottom line is, I play this game for fun, and I think pre-Searing is fun.

Anyway, on with the goods. I have a few retorts to some very valid points made by nova-exarch, and to make those understandable, I will quote the key peices from his thread.

But first of all, let me explain something. There is an entire economy in pre-Searing. Some people are far too aware of this, and others are completely oblivious. If I use the word "ignorant", please do not take it offensively. I use it as it is meant to be used. If someone is ignorant on a matter it simply means that they do not know about it. So yes, so people are very ignorant to the existance of certain things in pre-searing. I am making an attempted to enlighten them. Here are a few of those things, that I know for a fact to be true.

1) There is an economy there, just as there is in the rest of the world
2) It is possible to achieve lvel 20 in pre-Searing. Still.
3) There ARE max weapons, green/gold items, and runus in pre, just to name a few
4) Some people do have characters (myself included) that intend to keep their charcter in pre for the entire duration of it's existance
5) It is *IMPOSSIBLE* to salvage runes/upgrades from normal salvage kits
6) It IS possible to tame a bear as a pet
7) It is possible to have a level 20 pet with a much lower level character
8) Black dye are NOT worth as much as they are in post-Searing

I'm sure I'll add to this list, just as soon as I get yelled at my players for something new.

Okay, I'm sure that was a bore..But It couldn't be avoided.
I had to save the thread from the hundreds of "YOU CANT DO THIS" or "YOU CANT DO THAT" posts..

If you have a question as to how the these cames to be, feel free to ask, but please do not make a blatant deny of the things I've posted without suitable evidence. And believe me, I've spent quite a deal of time in pre, so I know what i'm talking about. Please don't take me as arrogant, I really do enjoy helping out players, and if there is some questions that you need assistance with, do feel free to contact me in-game.

But now, I will give you the basic run down of the economy in pre, AS PER MY EXPERIENCE.

Pre is potenetially more profitable than post, if you have the right items, or know the right people. EX: I often get offered triple the value of my pre black dye/gold for post items/gold

As for normal items, they aren't worth squat. You cant find them everything in pre. Items that are harder to find, BUT YOU'R STILL ABLE TO FIND are worth much more to you in pre.

Now for the good stuff. Let me take a while to explain this, as it seems that most people are unaware of these events.

Last April, there was a "glitch" that allowed a character in pre-Searing gain access to battle spectation (you can still do this). If that character was in a Guild, with a Guild Hall, they could then travel from the battle isles to their Guild Hall. Making sense yet? Gah.. Okay..

Once at the Hall, you could get your guild-mates to open trade with you, and stock you full of items from post (max weapons, sup runes, sup salvage kits, etc). Then you could simply return to pre-Searing.

Since this time, the glitch that allowed this exploit has been patched. As for the items, aNet has made no attempt to recover or delete the ones that came from post. That means that a few players still have these items. As there has been a certain increase of players wanting to gain a high level in pre, the items are selling very fast.

I compiled some forumlae to calculate the amount of profit you could net from an expert/superior salvage kit in pre, which are very valuable equations for those interested in buying one in pre:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRizzler

All of the runes you can find in salvage armors, in pre, are minor runes.
Once salvaged, those runes go for 12k, or 2 black dye each (pre currency, of course). A superior salvage kit has 100 uses. Given room for bogus salvages (e.g. Iron Ingots instead of Minor Rune of Vigor), I estimate that you will get ¾ uses of the kit (which is a liberal estimate, btw). Using these statistics, we can find the BASE ammount of profit that a superior/expert salvage kit can net you if you use it entirely to salvage runes and sell them.

a = d*(.75u) for the value in dye

d) cost of the rune, in black dye (2 as of right now)
u) Total number of uses on the kit left (100 on a full superior, 25 on full expert)
a) Total value of the kit, in black dye

b = g*(.75u) for the value in gold

g) cost of the rune, in gold (12k as of now)
u) total number of uses on the kit left (100 on a full superior, 25 on a full expert)
b) total value of the kit, in gold

For those that don't want to do the math, here are those basline prices for superior/expert salvage kits.

BLACK DYE PRICES
X = 2(25 x .75)
S = 2(100 x .75)
X (Expert Kit) = 37.5 total black dye (18.75 runes harvested)
S (Superior Kit) = 150 total black dye (75 runes harvested)

GOLD PRICES
X = (1.2 x (10^(+4))x(25 x .75))
S = (1.2 x (10^(+4))x(100 x .75))
X (Expert Kit) = 225,000g (18.75 runes harvested)
S (Superior Kit) = 900,000g (75 runes harvested)

Remember, these figures are based on the EXTREMELY LIBERAL estimate that 1/4th of your salvages will not yeild a rune (In reality, it will probably be a lot less). But those forumlae will basically tell you how much someone would make from a kit in pre, if they choose to salvage runes and sell them. So to purchase one, you would have to come up to close to the ammount of it's salvaging potential, unless you're getting it from a friend or guildie.

As for the superior runes.. As I mentioned earlier, they cannot be salvaged in pre, due to the fact that they cannot be found in pre. The only major/superior runes that exist in pre are the ones brought from post along with the kits. You're going to have a much harder time finding those, much less purchasing them.

I'm sorry for the forumulae are a bit hard to read, but I allowed room for you to calculate in the uses that are left on the kit, the viariable (u), and the current value of the runes, the variable (g) for gold. Also, I flunked out of algebra in high school lol. If those forumulae are incorrect, please someone tell me.

Ans as for your response to that, nova-exarch

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

Nice formulas...

Why... Thanks you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

Only troubles I see are:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

- There is no "set" value for anything in pre (or in post searing if it doesn't come from a vendor). It's completely a supply/demand kind of thing. Just because X price is what you saw and that is acceptable to you and I does not mean it will be acceptable to anyone else. All the formulas in the world will not change that.

You're right, Nova. And I appreciate the arguement. The thing is, since there is no guild-line set by a Dye Trader, people sell them for whatever they want to. When I buy/sell dye, I usually do it for 6k each. Sell or buy. That's a fair price in pre, it always has been. And trust me, pre is where I spend most of my time in GW, I know the economy. And PLEASE. Do not think that I'm implying in any way that you do not know the economy. People just don't like to give their dye away for much less than 6k, and I REFUSE to buy one at a higher price, in pre. Most people don't mind, and if they want that extra 1 or 2k, they'll take it to post. But the people I deal with while i'm in pre have characters that STAY in pre. Where this is no dye trader. Prices can basically be what you make of it there, unless you plan on going to post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

- The demand for stuff in pre is always going to be relatively small because of it's nature. The majority of players are going to get bored with pre and never make 12k, let alone the "crazy" amounts your formulas turn up.

Once again, nova, I agree. The mend for such high-end items in pre is INCREDIBLY small. Hell, I would imagine that less than 1/4th of the GW population (at the least the pre-Sear population) are unaware of such items in pre. But those are not the people that interest me. I'm interested in the players that will be in pre for a while. The ones that frighten me are the other players in my situation. Someone who wants to master pre-Searing (go ahead. Laugh away. Light the flames. I'm ready).

It's a small, tightknit group, and we all either know each other, or our friends know each other. For the most part, it's a fairly good group of friends. With a few exceptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

- Even if you consider trading post-searing gold for a kit in pre-searing, I can't think of too many people willing to trade anything close to 750k or even 500k in post-searing for a kit that "might" make them back close to 1,000k in pre-searing but will likely take months and months to do so. That is going to keep the demand really darned low.

Firsst of all, I made it very clear that I am trding PRE items -for- PRE items. I don't want to take the risk of getting scammed. And as the last part of my forumulae, I was just illustrating how much money someone could make from one of those kits. If he/she was going to sell one, logically, they would sell it cheaper, for the time that they would require to sell all of the runes. I'm just saying, still, you'd have to pay out of the ass for one.

I hope this clears some things up, if you have any questions, or just want to call me a jerk :P

Please just respond

Blitzy · Apr 28, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Found that quite an interesting read. I'm one of the ignorami (?

)....didn't realise alot of that.

nova-exarch · Apr 29, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Cool.

I was hoping you wouldn't take anything I said in the wrong fashion. I personally didn't mind the discussion there in the "WTB" thread. I've just seen others fussed at for posting too much in their own threads. (Too many bumps and whatnot)

I guess I shouldn't have said "troubles". The formulas are perfect for what you intended. They show what a kit would be worth to you, a player planning to stay in pre.

Quote:

Firsst of all, I made it very clear that I am trding PRE items -for- PRE items. I don't want to take the risk of getting scammed.

Ah, but I was the one offering to buy and I didn't specify. I'll trade either way. There are ways to be safe about trading.

Quote:

And as the last part of my forumulae, I was just illustrating how much money someone could make from one of those kits. If he/she was going to sell one, logically, they would sell it cheaper, for the time that they would require to sell all of the runes. I'm just saying, still, you'd have to pay out of the ass for one.

Oh, I was totally tracking you on that count. Just a little 25 shot would be great. I have no intentions of making 1,000,000 gold in pre.

--

By the way... if you haven't taken an economic class yet, you should. If you like to figure this sort of stuff out in a game world then doing the same thing in the really real world should be quite easy.

--

Anyway, from your list:

1) /agree... it's much more tenuous/in a state of flux, but it's there.
2) Sure does take a whole lot of time though

3) True. They're bragging rights only... I mean it's not like you need them

4) True
5) True
6) True and False... (Only with help)

7) True, but code 59 has made it more of a PITA now
8) This is debateable. I wouldn't accept anything less than the 6k you mentioned. I haven't checked post prices lately but I think 6k isn't that far off.

Good stuff!

hellboy909 · Apr 29, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Vewwy interesting. I'm gratified to know that I'm not the only one who loves playing pre-searing.

One question: can you somehow charm the rabbit as a pet?

theRizzler · May 01, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellboy909

One question: can you somehow charm the rabbit as a pet?

That's a very good question, hellboy. I've not seen it done. It may be possible, though.

If you'd like to try it out, get in contact with me in-game

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

By the way... if you haven't taken an economic class yet, you should. If you like to figure this sort of stuff out in a game world then doing the same thing in the really real world should be quite easy.

Thank you

I may look into that

Jason Xll · May 01, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Not a big fan of pre myself but im very interested in your achievments. Can u please most some screenshots of ur 20lvl char and dyes, etc.? I think this group of pre-lovers can be called an elite group, there are the 2 extremes: Very rich people with millions of platinum and hundreds ecto across their numerous 'mule' accounts and these more subsistant but at the same time more hard-working people people who grind in pre-searing.
I'd very much like to see those max weapons in pre resulting from the glitch

nova-exarch · May 01, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

The two most well equipped pre players I've heard of are in this thread.

I'm still level 12.

25% from level 13 though.

I seriously doubt I will go past 17 but who knows?

Faer · May 02, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

That's a very good question, hellboy. I've not seen it done. It may be possible, though.

If you'd like to try it out, get in contact with me in-game

Don't bother guys... The Rabbit isn't a valid target for the Charm Animal skill.

I tried it already

hellboy909 · May 02, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avaith Faer

Don't bother guys... The Rabbit isn't a valid target for the Charm Animal skill.

I tried it already

So anyone know why it's there? Is this just another half-finished quest thing like Gwen?

ObsidianJoy · May 02, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellboy909

So anyone know why it's there? Is this just another half-finished quest thing like Gwen?

It's probably there for the same reason the grass and trees are there. For the "feel" and look of the game.

I've got a question. How do you tame a bear? I thought maybe distracting it with another player would work but the Brea Charm(or whatever it's called) skill doesnt need a target. And I cant think of anyway to tame one.

Bluefeather · May 02, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

My request to theRizzler:

I am having a hard time believing your statements but it will help me a lot if you can show me a screen shot of your character in pre-sear together with your inventory.

Quote:

1) There is an economy there, just as there is in the rest of the world
2) It is possible to achieve lvel 20 in pre-Searing. Still.
3) There ARE max weapons, green/gold items, and runus in pre, just to name a few
4) Some people do have characters (myself included) that intend to keep their charcter in pre for the entire duration of it's existance
5) It is *IMPOSSIBLE* to salvage runes/upgrades from normal salvage kits
6) It IS possible to tame a bear as a pet
7) It is possible to have a level 20 pet with a much lower level character
8) Black dye are NOT worth as much as they are in post-Searing

1. I agree. Although the economy in pre is in a small scale (ie 10g-500g trade, exemption on Black Dye)

2. I don't agree. I don't know any monster that will give you experience point when you reach level 14~

3. I don't agree. Unless someone exploited an old bug which according to you has already been patch. It means there is no longer supply/production of those items from unauthorized source.

4. Agree.

5. Agree.

6. It was. Not anymore.

7. I disagree. Unless if you can show me a level 20 pet owned by a lowe level character.

8. Partially agree coz all dyes cost lower in pre compared to post. Unless one "ignorant" player sells his black dye for 100g.

Those are what I think. Please help me "accept" or "digest" your points by showing pictures. Pictures may change my opinion.

Thallandor · May 02, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

green and gold items in pre????? did i missed something?

theRizzler · May 02, 2006, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason XII

Can u please most some screenshots of ur 20lvl char and dyes, etc.?

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I had a level 20 character in pre-Searing, but I do not. My pre-character is level 16, and I doubt I will go higher than that. But I know for a fact that it is still possible.

As for the screens, I took some of my character, one showing a rune (which many people claim to be impossible to get in pre), one showing the dye you requested to see, and the last showing that my exp is not stuck at 0%.

These are rather large images, so I hosted them from photobucket. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

Screens:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...er/sirmyk1.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...er/sirmyk2.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...er/sirmyk3.jpg

Also.. While I'm posting screenshots.. Did no one else notice this glitch a few days back? I've not seen it posted anywhere.. Have a look.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...r/gwglitch.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5.../gwglitch1.jpg

[EDIT] I posted another screenshot of this glitch, one taken in town after the mission. It's only supposed to say 1k experience and 1 skill point.. But as you can see, that was not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluefeather

My request to theRizzler:

I am having a hard time believing your statements but it will help me a lot if you can show me a screen shot of your character in pre-sear together with your inventory.

I understand your skepticism, and I respect your request. I have provided the screens above as evidence of most of the claims, except for the one I cannot entirely prove to you, because I've yet to attain a max sword for my character.

As for reaching level 20 in pre, it is possible.
The highest level monsters in pre are the 4 Charr bosses, located in the Northlands. They are all level 10. By naturally killing them, you can attain a level 16 character (you get exp for killing monsters up to 5 levels under you).
If you want to get to a higher level than that, you need higher level monsters to kill.
The remedy? Level up the monsters. Let them kill you. They gain exp just like a PC would. This is, however, very time consuming. Before the update that decreased the chase distance on monsters, you could simply pull a group of Charr to a resurrection shrine, and let them kill you while you're AFK.

While this is still possible in certain places, it's hardly as efficient.

As for the max/green/gold weapons I mentioned, yes, they came to pre via an exploit. It allowed characters to access their Guild Hall from pre-Searing, so then a guild mate could load them up with post items, and have them simply return to pre. This is how you'll see items such as max weapons, bags, runes, superior salvage kits, etc, in pre. True, the exploit was patched (around Valentine's Day I believe), but the items that made it to pre still exist, and I've heard no concrete evidence that aNet has made any attempt to remove the items.

As for the bear taming.. It is still possible. A friend proved this to me yesterday.

As for the level 20 pets, refer to my previous notes on leveling up monsters.

[edit]I'm having some problems with photobucket wanting to resize my images, I'll try to get it worked out ASAP
[edit]Images are working fine. Sorry about load times for slower connections, the pictures are high resolution.
[edit]Screw photobucket.. I'm hosting them locally now. (locally as in my machine, not GWG's)

Cottage Pie · May 02, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

there is no pre-searing economy unless you scam dyes off newbs, 'nuff said.

theRizzler · May 02, 2006, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cottage Pie

there is no pre-searing economy unless you scam dyes off newbs, 'nuff said.

Congratulations. That's the most ignorant statement I've read in a while.

"'nuff said".

Heh..

Next time, please base your posts on actual knowledge.
Also, a little reading goes a long way.

Cottage Pie · May 02, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

Congratulations. That's the most ignorant statement I've read in a while.

"'nuff said".

Heh..

Next time, please base your posts on actual knowledge.
Also, a little reading goes a long way.

Play the real game, chump, don't cower away in pre-searing trying to be the big daddy-o.

Pre-searing economy...yeah, of black dye scammers! nuff said!

Shantel Span · May 02, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Interesting...I always planned out my characters with a goal in mind, like my ranger - I wanted her to trap in the UW. So I ran her through Pre, getting all the skills then jumping over ASAP. Never really did much questing or exploration, and now all my slots are used up.

Terra Xin · May 02, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cottage Pie

Play the real game, chump, don't cower away in pre-searing trying to be the big daddy-o.

Pre-searing economy...yeah, of black dye scammers! nuff said!

hmmmmm..... /ignore

This is such a cool post, I actually wanted a warrior of mine to stay in pre, but then I needed a sword for IW and it wasnt until I got him to deliver it in post that i realised you can still wield weapons even if you dont meet the requirements... so yeah that put me off pre for a while.

I'd like to go back actually, I love the trading that takes place in fort ranik, I made about 10k at one time (which i spent.... took me friggin ages too)

Hint on catching bears:

2 ppl
narrow area
1 body block

If you are able to charm it, it was meant to be charmed.

I've seen a minor rune before, couldnt salvage it tho.

Jagflame · May 02, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Play the real game, chump, don't cower away in pre-searing trying to be the big daddy-o.

Pre-searing economy...yeah, of black dye scammers! nuff said!

You're a moron... anything in which trading is possible has an economy, I thought that even the most braindead of people would realize that.

Besides, you only posted in order to stir the pot so leave and find another forum to troll. No one wants you here.

Cottage Pie · May 02, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

hmmmmm..... /ignore

This is such a cool post, I actually wanted a warrior of mine to stay in pre, but then I needed a sword for IW and it wasnt until I got him to deliver it in post that i realised you can still wield weapons even if you dont meet the requirements... so yeah that put me off pre for a while.

I'd like to go back actually, I love the trading that takes place in fort ranik, I made about 10k at one time (which i spent.... took me friggin ages too)

Hint on catching bears:

2 ppl
narrow area
1 body block

If you are able to charm it, it was meant to be charmed.

I've seen a minor rune before, couldnt salvage it tho.

hey, ignoring my opinion?

pretty ignorant, really, considering i know easily as much as these people 'bout the game

I do have actual knowledge, I do have 2k hours playtime, and i read a lot, gg.

there is no pre-searing economy to speak of, at all (bar all those pathetic dye scammers), the trades for the big items are often conducted OUTSIDE of presearing for a start (like, 5 people wanting to spend all their cash on leaked items in presearing is no economy, it's a niche group of people who think of themselves as "elite" LOL) (go and check WTB forums for relavent posts), thus that's a post-searing/the real economy, if anything, trading for pre-searing items...

yeah, you really just /ignored me after reading that.